My guess is that it's an adaptation of the drill stop collar trick from the EP....???

Agreed - the new arms are like stepping up to a Rolls Royce!

Sounds like you are building a great relationship with the guys in the kitchen!

You got your first taste of other people's knives, and it looks like you may have the stomach to do even more

Besides, working for food isn't such a bad thing, especially in a Michelin starred restaurant!

Well, your best bet is sometimes to just get everything

But before you go wild on accessories, be sure to master getting a knife sharpened to the stock diamond 600 level first. Then the fun can really begin!

Excellent customer service at Wicked Edge is the norm, and they often exceed that long before finishing their first cup of coffee in the morning.

It also makes using the WEPS all the more enjoyable

With good technique, the 800 Chosera refines the edge to a point to where you should be able to shave arm hairs with the slightest of pressure, but not enough for shaving your face. There isn't enough polish effect of the 800 Chosera to squeeze out an actual shaving edge, either - for that you'd need a different type of stone, one that has more polishing effect and less concentration/softer abrasive - and that's an entirely different topic.

As for what is happening between the Chosera 800 and the 200 WEPS diamond, there has been some disagreement in what exactly is happening.

CBW refers to the Verhoeven, where the edge is a point that is fine enough to cut hairs, but the surface of the bevels are not smooth enough and impede the cutting process.

I think the edge of the edge is not able to be to a fine enough point to cleanly sever hairs at 800 because the abrasive keeps "cutting through" the edge, keeping it, in this case, too thick. Not until you reach higher refinements will the edge become thin enough.

The more I mull this over, these arguments seem similar in what they are saying, and I think it is more a matter of perspective. The real fact here is that the diamonds cut much differently.

The reason, IMO (regardless of Verhoeven), is that t he diamonds create a "false positive" due to the rather deep scratches in the edge of the edge, which are deep enough to cause the edge to cut hairs in what is basically a serrated edge, but the overall bevel is still too thick.

A good illustration of what I mean is this:



You can see the overall "bevel" is thick, but the areas within the serrations where the actual thin blade is exposed would be your deeper scratches from the diamonds. It catches the hairs and cuts them.

When you hit the Choseras and Shaptons, the edge is more homogenous, the scratches are not as deep, the serrations aren't as sharp - and more importantly, the edge of the edge is still too wide to cleanly sever a hair.

Compare the tops of the two pics of the 200 WEPS and the 800 Chosera and the 1K Shapton (which is equivalent to the 800 Chosera):

200 WEPS Diamond:


800 Chosera:


1K Shapton Pro:

Limpy,

There's a lot of great advice so far! My question is: Are you planning on sharpening other people's knives, or are you looking to further the abilities of the WEPS on your own knives?

If you plan to sharpen knives for other people, then adding the 50/80 will definitely be an advantage, as mentioned, if you get enough bad knives, a belt sander will make life even easier. Taking things beyond the 5/3.5 micron is also good, but is not necessary for every knife, especially the cheapo knives.

Getting the arms will certainly improve the overall accuracy and ease of sharpening, but again, isn't necessary to get great results.

In the end, it's a personal call, the good news is that you won't make the wrong decision with either!

It depends....

I'd start with doing hundreds of strokes at each level first...

If you are going for function, you are fine - a scratch here and there in the bevel is not the end of the world (for some, perhaps...) However, if you want the aesthetic as well, you will need to invest time at every level, no matter which products you use. Of course, the Shaptons and Choseras will make things more perfect, IMO, but you are still investing time. For example, when I prepare an edge for my microscope pics, It needs to be flawless, and it takes a good 1-2 hours for the entire progression. Normal sharpening takes about 10-20 minutes, though.

I wrote this article in January 2010 concerning the philosophical reasons for using customized stones for the Edge Pro - The WEPS wasn't on the radar at the time, but you can easily argue the same things at this point for the WEPS, and it's pretty much the essence of what is beginning to be discussed here about the subtle, yet tangible differences between the different stones.

Enjoy!


http://jendeindustries.wordpress.com/2010/01/30

KenBuzbee wrote:


Well, I've been there several times over the past few years... Some of you guys are newer patients at the rabbit hole ward...

This is the beauty of having a variety of accessory stones available for the WEPS! The bottom line is that while all the equipment works, they all work differently (with some arguably "better" than others), and that is the fun part.

It won't be long before many of us from this thread are found naked, rocking in the corner of a room, mumbling something about ceramics and Choseras while sucking our thumbs because went crazy from the possibilities while trying to figure out the best progression to use for a particular knife...

Hi Mark!

There are some excellent recommendations so far.

I'd stick with the diamond stocks up to 600 or 1K, then switch over to a Chosera 800/2K or 3K combo, and a 5K/10K.

Depending on the steel, you should be able to get a slight mirror out of the 2K Chosera, and a better one out of the 3K. But more importantly, the Chosera 800 will get things nice and clean form the diamond scratches, and the 2K or 3K will put an excellent working edge. The 2K stone has a little give to it, it will take care of those more abrasion resistant stones with less hassle. The 3K is a little harder, and will give a little more precision out of it (I'm talking differences between OCD levels, here - you won't go wrong with either).

Another option is the 1K/5K, which is more no-nonsense (but less OCD friendly ). It will require a little more effort when switching from the stock diamonds, and when finishing on the 5K (just a couple more minutes, really). I wouldn't recommend a 800/5K, although you could if you really wanted to.

The real shine happens off the 10K, IMO. I find the 5K Chosera to aesthetically be a little "scratchy" on the surface for my personal tastes.

I hope this helps! BTW, Bob is a great guy, and won't steer you wrong.

Looking good!

Love the tree idea, too!

We're opening up a great can of worms here!

I believe the warmth generated by the members here is genuine

You've hit the nail on the head with why you are sharpening - for Zen. It's different to do sharpening for money, and requires having the stomach for it. You will quickly realize that once you step out of your perfectly manicured zen rock garden of 3-5 perfectly sharpened knives, kitchen knives of the masses are generally horribly kept, and usually require more time and effort than the knives are worth, as Lukas pointed out. That's why there are belt sanders, too.

However, if you are in a Michelin starred Kitchen, these guys are not your usual "ex-con line cooks" and will be very serious about keeping their knives in working condition. Which knives they have in their roll will depend on that they prepare and cook - again, the most common are the paring and chef's knives. These knives are usually "easier" to sharpen.

The beautiful thing about wanting to venture out into sharpening other peoples knives is that you get to limit the number. You don't need to do 100. Start with one, and see if you like it, and if you do, take 2 next time, etc.

Welcome aboard, Zeppo!

Buckle up and enjoy the ride, it's about to begin!

Good restaurants will usually have staff with their own sets of knives, and the quality can be anywhere on the map from cheap, entry level knives to very expensive, custom made knives. One thing for sure, most of them are dulled from maintaining (or attempting to do so) with a steel, which is usually the method preached in culinary schools.

They will usually have a variety of knives in their knife roll but most will definitely include the following:

Paring knife
Chef Knife
Boning Knife
Bread/Serrated Knife
Meat Cleaver (depending on the kind of prep)

The Chef knife and paring knife are usually the most used.

I'd start with restaurants you frequent- talk to the owners or chefs there, and see of you can't get into their knives. The process is the same as described below, but you'll have a much warmer reception initially from people who know you.

Pro Kitchens (especially Michelin) usually have some sort of hierarchy, and if the top guy says no, then you are dead in the water, but if he/she is impressed, then the world opens up for you. So here's what I would do - I would prepare a good quality chef knife on the WEPS, and bring it to the highest ranking person in the kitchen for inspection. You may need to schedule an appointment, first. Introduce yourself as a sharpener (maybe prepare a business card?), and ask about what services he uses, and if he's satisfied with them. Ask what kind of knives he uses, ask if you may inspect them, then discuss what you see on his edge, and what you can do as a sharpener. Then offer to sharpen a knife for free (you'll get the worst of the bunch, mind you!), and offer to leave the knife you prepared while you sharpen his to see if it meets his standards.

You'll need to do this in about 5-10 minutes, since chef's are always running during prep times, and you can't even think about talking during service times.

If you run into a kitchen that has "house knives", sometimes it isn't worth it (Usually hotels and chain restaurants) In the US, these kitchens are serviced weekly by a van that drops off somewhat sharpened knives and picks up the duller ones. Usually the kitchen rents the knives from the sharpening service company, and the sharpening is "free".

Either way, have fun with it. It's always great to see someone getting the courage to take their sharpening to the next level!

You should've worked out the chips with a grinder or a file first, then fixed everything up with the 50's!

Don't waste the WEPS diamonds if you don't need to, IMO!

BTW - that's a seriously psychedelic tablecloth, my friend!

Sharpening your lawnmower blades is actually helpful to the health of your lawn.

If you notice a dull blade will leave the grass more ripped at the top, and it will begin to yellow sooner than a blade of grass cut cleanly. (I used to mow a lot of lawns back in the day!)

Sharpness here doesn't require 0.125 micron edges, since the blade will be subject to high rpm, but that doesn't seem to stop people I'd recommend using the WEPS diamonds up to 600 or 1K, and even that is pretty overkill seeing how your local shop will probably just use a bastard file or 36 grit and a leather wheel.

Be sure to get some pictures!

This is an interesting topic that often gets heated in the kitchen knife world!

The perfect marriage of tooth and polish is always subjective, but here's my take:

Toothy edges are caused by coarser grits and produce a better "ripping" edge, while polished edges are formed by finer grits, and produce better "slicing" abilities.

Most production EDC knives are factory sharp to about 220 grit and then buffed with some sort of fine compound. This leaves a toothy edge that cuts into everything, caused by the 220 grit scratches, but the fine compound "polishes the grooves" to give it that smoother slicing ability.

What Tj did was to essentially establish very fine scratches at the edge, which makes it more a slicing edge, and the reason it didn't seem to grab onto what it was cutting.

What's best? Well that depends, of course. Since it seems you want a little more bite, I would keep the 1600 WEPS and then skip to the 3.5 micron diamond on balsa. (which diamond product are you using - WEPS paste or Ken Schwartz spray? that makes a difference). Your might not have the mirror, but you will have the smoothness of the 3.5 micron combined with some tooth from the 1600