Just a brief comment. It isn't that the 'roo 'slices' are thinner slices as much as that the skin itself is much thinner. No slicing is attempted - it's just a selectively thinner hide.

It also isn't that the 'roo is a tougher hide - it is thinner. This gives you less give.

It's also much smoother. This is immediately apparent when you feel them and compare the creamy smooth texture of 'roo vs cow or horse. The abrasiveness of 'roo is far finer in nature rather than tougher. The lack of give of the 'roo comes from it's extreme thinness. If it were backed with a soft backing, it would be quite supple enough to be used for convex edges, but with the Aluminum backing it is quite firm. The only thing less abrasive than the 'roo is the nanocloth, which is the absolute minimum of interference with the qualities of the applied compound, yielding a pure compound effect. The 'roo does have a draw or burnishing effect which the nanocloth doesn't. I've gotten excellent results with both nanocloth and 'roo, so you won't be disappointed with either.

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Ken

So I guess where I'm going with this is to explore what natural stones do and some thoughts regarding ideas of increased edge longevity using Japanese natural stones. You'll see how this relates to this topic in a bit.

Synthetic stones have a grit number assigned to it. So you might have a 2000 grit stone for instance. Natural stones don't have a grit number that can be assigned to them, even though people try to do it.
Synthetic stones usually have aluminum oxide as their abrasive (I'm leaving out details to keep from going off in tangents here). Depending on stone quality, these can be pretty precisely graded. The abrasive particles are more or les spherical in shape - cubes spheres polygonal shapes - and they stay that way. Naturals (Japanese by default)are a much more varied structure, with particles of different hardnesses and sizes and shapes. You might have particles shaped more like corn flakes. How do you measure the size of a cornflake - it's length width or thickness? Or it's surface textures? Now if this wasn't complex enoungh, what happens if you use these flakes and in the process of developing mud on the stone, the flakes break up into smaller flakes? Pretty complex.

So what is the result of this? It is a slurry that refines itself as you are using it! It gets finer with use.

So now we have a scratch pattern that contains various scratch patterns. Do you see where I'm going with this? Now you have an edge with various 'sizes' of 'teeth' so when you 'use up' teeth of one grit another level of teeth comes into play. Interesting stuff, isn't it? you don't get a single point of failure but rather a graded sequence of failures.

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Ken

Let's split this up a bit. If you are sharpening at two different grits on the 2 sides of the knife, the symmetry or lack of it is a separate issue - unrelated. So you could do this on a symmetric or asymmetric grind.

I'm not quite sure what the advantage of this would be, but if you wished to go back and forth between compounds and stones in a progression, you could do it. Unorthodox, but I've done it.

So finally why would you do it? If you wanted a combination of toothy and refined why not do it the same way on both sides? I'm confused about what you are trying to achieve. Please clarify this and maybe I could come up with something.

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Ken

A microbevel is just a tiny bevel less acute than the original bevel.

So you can make a microbevel from a single stroke of a high grit strop (and see it under a scope) or make a much larger one with a coarser stone too. The level of refinement, the number of degrees difference is up to you.

The purpose of a microbevel is to make the edge less acute. This gives you a more durable edge, trading acuteness for toughness. You typically use it if the existing angle is too acute FOR THE TASK you wish the knife to perform.

You can do a series of less and less acute microbevels and combine or blend them into a convex grind, or just use a softer substrate to generate a convex grind (with precision when using a Wicked Edge. For this task, I utilize neoprene mounted on a paddle with an abrasive substrate (nanocloth or Kangaroo usually) over it with abrasive applied (CBN or diamond usually). Harder substrates produce less convexity.

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Ken

youtu.be/dDsWh_M7Rekhttp://youtu.be/dDsWh_M7Rek

(Can't seem to embed the video)

This shows the concepts behind doing asymmetric bevels on a grinder but it translates very nicely on the Wicked Edge. You actually have far more control with the Wicked edge with the additional benefit of even using two different angles if you wish (not a requirement).

Just set the angles on both sides - usually the same angle. If you wish to shift the asymmetry to one side or the other just grind more on that side.

Note that you can maintain angle asymmetry and go more or less acute in terms of the overall included angle.

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Ken

SO I guess the point I'm trying to make is that it is best to not think of things in terms of stropping honing and sharpening but rather to just call them ALL abrading. So to answer your last question first, a 15 micron strop would be far rougher of a finish than a 10k stone and would be going in the wrong direction.

So saying strops do this and stones do that is wrong. It's all about the particle size as the major factor. An 80 micron CBN strop cuts way faster than a 10k stone. Not even close.

Does a 15 micron spray leave the same scratch pattern as a 1k Chocera. Not really. It is a simplification to compare all particles on all media as giving the same result just because the particle size is the same. Apples and oranges are about the same size but taste different for example. So most stones are aluminum oxide based (generalization). Compounds can be Aluminum oxide, CBN (cubic boron nitride, polycrystalline or monocrystalline diamond, etc etc) Each of these have different abrasive properties based on particle shape particle hardness, etc etc.

Hope this helps. It's just the tip of the iceberg.

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Ken

15 microns is roughly equivalent to a 1k Chocera stone in terms of grit size. I use particles as coarse as 80 microns on strops, but at that size (I have CBN particles as large as 300 microns) you start running into 'issues' using regular strops. I do use 30 and 45 micron particles as strops - nanocloth and leather. They 'sink' into balsa only partially sticking out. If the substrate is too hard they roll around.

An interesting approach to larger particles is to use a waterstone as the strop substrate! There is one caveat. The carrier for the particulates must be water soluble!! Otherwise it can damage a waterstone.

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Ken

On leather I just add a bit more of the abrasive spray when necessary. Leather on alcohol is pretty harmless, drying more rapidly than water, but it can eventually loosen the glue attaching the strop to the paddle.

On nanocloth you can refresh with a water mist, although I rarely do this. If you are being picky I'd suggest deionized water, which is less likely to produce particle agglomeration which could be misinterpreted as a more aggressive finish from the clumped or agglomerated particles (larger micron size).

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Ken

Since you have it worst case backwards, I'd suggest peeling the leather off on both and regluing them (harder) or relabeling the paddles (easier). It's hard to uncontaminate a strop perfectly.

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Ken

Yes it is worth emphasizing that all diamond lapping plates go through a break in period. Initially, the finish is coarser and more irregular and more aggressive. After breaking, it is more consistent but looses that initial aggression. Why waste it? Use that initial breaking for flattening some coarse stones or roughing in a big bevel. Be aware of some loose diamond stones from a plate causing errant scratches or getting mixed into the mud on a stone.

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Ken

Clay, I have the glass platens for the Wicked Edge - and diamond films too. Please send me a PM about them.

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Ken

I haven't used the 50 and 80 grit diamond plates, so I couldn't comment on them directly.

I do make the Atoma diamond plates for the Wicked Edge in 140 400 600 and 1200 grit.

The Cutco steel isn't a particularly hard steel - just the opposite. And you aren't drastically changing the angle or reprofiling the knife to an extreme angle (which I wouldn't recommend doing on a Cutco in any case).

The 140 Atoma will make short work reprofiling a Cutco - or any of the much more highly abrasion resistant steels as well.

It is one of the most popular products I make (also for the EdgePro) specifically for this purpose of creating an initial reprofiled angle. I usually recommend following this with a finer diamond plate for more abrasion resistant steels or going to a stone like a 150 Nubatama waterstone or 220 grit Shapton Pro stone. The stones 'convert' from a diamond scratch pattern to a 'softer' waterstone pattern.

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Ken

Sven,

I'm sending you a PM I have all the Shapton grits in stock for the Wicked Edge. 120 220 320 1k 1.5k 2k 5k 8k 15k 30k. Thanks guys for mentioning me. Sometimes I feel like I'm a well kept secret. I do need to post here more as I have more additional products and compounds available too. Clay is testing one out now that I know he will like

I also have natural stones and may soon be putting some Nubatama stones cut for the Wicked Edge too. I also have the paddles so I can sell you whatever combination you want as well. This would even include Kangaroo or nanocloth on one side and a fine grit 15k or 30k Shapton on the other for instance. And for those not familiar with my products, I also have an extensive line of compounds in CBN diamond and Alumina as well as diamond films and glass blanks for the Wicked Edge.

Just send me a PM or email to ksskss at earthlink dot net.

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Ken

"KenSchwartz wrote:
I have a perfect solution. Sending you a PM.

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Ken


Can't share it Ken? "


PM sent

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Ken

Ken,

I already have glass plates for the WE. Just send me a PM regarding this.

Regarding CBN plates, The issue is when running wheels at high temperature vs diamond is that you get a reaction with diamond (which is a form of carbon) in that it can change the carbon concentration of the steel. For hand applications, this particular virtue of CBN as an advantage over diamond is not really an issue. For these applications you typically use monocrystalline diamond, simply because it doesn't break down showing fresh sharp edges like poly, but maintains it's shape so it is less likely to drop out of it's metal bond (nickel) matrix.

If any of you have a specific interest for CBN either in film form or plate form, please let me know as I do have a supplier for these. In general, I have a LOT more products than are displayed on the net and do custom applications for customers all the time. This includes a vast array of synthetic and natural stones, stops, etc.

Also note that CBN is more expensive than monocrystalline diamond and Poly is the most expensive of the three.



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Ken

I have a perfect solution. Sending you a PM.

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Ken

razoredgeknives wrote:


Just send me a PM for details. Regards, Ken

Well, Dan did make the point that grinding on one side more that the other can make for a larger bevel even with both sides at the same angle. So you can match bevel widths by grinding for a longer time on the side that is shortest.

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Ken

I now have glass blanks that I use for diamond films for the WE. Anyone interested, please contact me.

I do agree that the glass is flatter and more precise than the aluminum surfaces.


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Ken